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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:43 am 
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Posts: 12
Hi Steve
Regarding educating the client, the ultimate bottom line for the client is if you cannot prove IF REQUIRED in a court of law you have done all you possibly can to ensure the safety of all persons on the premises then MAYBE you could be fined or in extreme cases jailed.

With your health and safety background you must have seen some dangerous situations. What is your perception of competent person and do you think it would be best all round if it was a outside company that carried out the visuals.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:48 pm 
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Location: Cornwall
Hi Brett
Again many thanks for your thoughts, I think when it really comes to any H&S issues, it’s a mine field. You must ask yourself a question, when you passed you driving test did that make you a competent person, or did you just past your test? But under the statement I copied under PUWER, it said that he/she received has had adequate information, instruction and training. The real question you must ask is the word adequate, how to you prove this and to what extent is adequate? When you pasted your driving test did you deem this as adequate? therefore a competent person to drive? You had a piece of paper to say you can drive, is this adequate? It’s the same as going on a course, or passing an exam, or getting a ticket, or CSCS card / qualification to drive a piece of plant etc.
There seem to be many grey areas, and holes (looses) in which you could be hung, and there are organisations out there (I just Googled it) giving this as an option to provide a competent person to your organisation. Also it might be worth a chat to the NICIEC or IEE or another governing body to see their thoughts. But talking to another member today, I think that this whole thing is getting bogged down, and therefore we should point out the guidance notes under the C of P and let them (the Client) decide. Unfortunately it seems this is where this is heading.

This is a statement from the Health and Safety Executive (HSE)

A competent person is someone who has sufficient training and experience or knowledge and other qualities that allow them to assist you properly. The level of competence required will depend on the complexity of the situation and the particular help you need.


Health & Safety At Work Act 1974
Code of Practice
Approval of codes of practice by the Commission.
16. (1) For the purpose of providing practical guidance with respect to the requirements of any provision of sections 2 to 7 or of health and safety regulations or of any of the existing statutory provisions, the Commission may, subject to the following subsection and except as regards matters relating exclusively to agricultural operations
• (A) approve and issue such codes of practice (whether prepared by it or not) as in its opinion are suitable for that purpose;
• (B) approve such codes of practice issued or proposed to be issued otherwise than by the Commission as in its opinion are suitable for that purpose.
(2) The Commission shall not approve a code of practice under subsection (1) above without the consent of the Secretary of State, and shall, before seeking his consent, consult
• (A) any government department or other body that appears to the Commission to be appropriate (and, in particular, in the case of a code relating to electro-magnetic radiations, the National Radiological Protection Board); and
• (B) such government departments and other bodies, if any, as in relation to any matter dealt with in the code, the Commission is required to consult under this section by virtue of directions given to it by the Secretary of State.
(3) Where a code of practice is approved by the Commission under subsection (1) above, the Commission shall issue a notice in writing
• (A) identifying the code in question and stating the date on which its approval by the Commission is to take effect; and
• (B) specifying for which of the provisions mentioned in subsection (1) above the code is approved.
(4) The Commission may
• (A) from time to time revise the whole or any part of any code of practice prepared by it in pursuance of this section;
• (B) approve any revision or proposed revision of the whole or any part of any code of practice for the time being approved under this section;
and the provisions of subsections (2) and (3) above shall, with the necessary modifications, apply in relation to the approval of any revision under this subsection as they apply in relation to the approval of a code of practice under subsection (1) above.
(5) The Commission may at any time with the consent of the Secretary of State withdraw its approval from any code of practice approved under this section, but before seeking his consent shall consult the same government departments and other bodies as it would be required to consult under subsection (2) above if it were proposing to approve the code.
(6) Where under the preceding subsection the Commission withdraws its approval from a code of practice approved under this section, the Commission shall issue a notice in writing identifying the code in question and stating the date on which its approval of it is to cease to have effect.
(7) References in this Part to an approved code of practice are references to that code as it has effect for the time being by virtue of any revision of the whole or any part of it approved under this section.
(8) The power of the Commission under subsection (1)(B) above to approve a code of practice issued or proposed to be issued otherwise than by the Commission shall include power to approve a part of such a code of practice; and accordingly in this Part "code of practice" may be read as including a part of such a code of practice.

Use of approved codes of practice in criminal proceedings.
17. (1) A failure on the part of any person to observe any provision of an approved code of practice shall not of itself render him liable to any civil or criminal proceedings; but where in any criminal proceedings a party is alleged to have committed an offence by reason of a contravention of any requirement or prohibition imposed by or under any such provision as is mentioned in section 16(1) being a provision for which there was an approved code of practice at the time of the alleged contravention, the following subsection shall have effect with respect to that code in relation to those proceedings.
(2) Any provision of the code of practice which appears to the court to be relevant to the requirement or prohibition alleged to have been contravened shall be admissible in evidence in the proceedings; and if it is proved that there was at any material time a failure to observe any provision of the code which appears to the court to be relevant to any matter which it is necessary for the prosecution to prove in order to establish a contravention of that requirement or prohibition, that matter shall be taken as proved unless the court is satisfied that the requirement or prohibition was in respect of that matter complied with otherwise than by way of observance of that provision of the code.
(3) In any criminal proceedings
• (A) a document purporting to be a notice issued by the Commission under section 16 shall be taken to be such a notice unless the contrary is proved; and (B) a code of practice which appears to the court to be the subject of such a notice shall be taken to be the subject of that notice unless the contrary is proved.


Also you could include sections 2 - 7 under the HSWA1974 and i am sure many more

Like i said it's a mine fleld!


Have you or anybody else got any thoughts on this subject?

Steve
:|

_________________
City and Guilds 2377 Qualified PAT Testing Engineer
Domestic Electrician(NICEIC)
Always looking for new customers based in Cornwall
All in accordance with The IEE CofP
www.handselectrical.co.uk


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:40 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:44 am
Posts: 131
Location: Cornwall
Hi Carl Richard and Lorna

I just was revisiting some of the threads, not much on in these wet and dark evenings, are you intending to include the visual report within the next update, looking at the hits it has had well over 500, it must be generating some interest :?:
Steve.

_________________
City and Guilds 2377 Qualified PAT Testing Engineer
Domestic Electrician(NICEIC)
Always looking for new customers based in Cornwall
All in accordance with The IEE CofP
www.handselectrical.co.uk


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